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Garden: Rationally I have to accept it and when I feel the emptiness I try to see it as a necessary part of the process. To try to deal with it, I have read a lot of theory and found from research on creativity the following model: A preparation phase during which one collects, then the incubation phase which can be compared to pupation or to pregnancy. After that is the illumination phase which leads to realisation.

The pupation phase is the most difficult for me, I experience it as stagnation. But the one cannot exist without the other. I need stimulation, which is the reason for my frequent travels and changes of place but I also need peace and quiet for the phases of integration and pupation to again become creative.

Chisholm: So creativity can sometimes also be a painful process.

Garden: Yes indeed. An interesting train of thought reassured me – I think I found it in the catalogue to the Sam Francis exhibition at the Bonner Kunsthalle. It was formulated by Pontus Hultén who suggested that when an artist wishes to create something new he/she should place him/herself in a position within which forces of chaos can work.

Chisholm: "The forces of chaos", that is interesting. Tàpies tries to put himself in a particular state of mind by carrying out rhythmical movements. Francis Bacon confessed to alcoholism. Do you think that it is necessary for creative processes to withdraw from normal life either by the use of meditation, alcohol or drugs?